The Warrior Forum, independence, and WSOs closing
I admit, I decided to write this blog post from a bit of an emotional impetus. I suppose at the current moment, I am slightly disappointed. Recent events over at my beloved Warrior Forum have made me less than pleased and as a result, I’ve taken some action and I’ve reflected a bit… and I’d like to share these thoughts with you because I think you may get value from them.
*If for some reason you do not know what the Warrior Forum is, it is the biggest internet marketing forum on the web. It has been and still is enormously influential in the IM world. Onward…
The first and probably biggest migration away from WF happened when the powers that be decided to ban all backlink providers on the basis of them violated the TOS of other sites. I’m not going to go into the whole thing, but this was just ridiculous on a number of levels, including that many of these providers had private networks or weren’t even providing links, just link advice. I wish I could find Terry Kyle’s blog post on the hypocrisy and lunacy of the event (sorry guys, you’ll have to search it out yourself).
Another recent migration amongst my group of friends has occurred due to a number of factors… WSO bumping raising in price, moderators not upholding WSO rules, forum respect seeming to go down the drain… I honestly turned my cheek on these issues (and the SEO issue above) because the WF has been so good to me. I once wrote a post about how it changed everything for me (because it did, in a way). I didn’t really see any of this stuff worth me abandoning the forum or moving in another direction.
But this recent event has rubbed me the wrong way. It’s not THAT big of a deal, but I think it’s indicative of the lack of reciprocal support between the moderators and the members…
For months, I have been posting my (high-value) freebies in the “Make Money Online” section and garnering hundreds of opt-ins and dozens of positive reviews and “thank yous.” This section of the forum was relatively quiet and where as in the WSO section, threads move from page to page within hours, threads on the MMO section move from page to page within WEEKS. According to forum moderator, Sean A McAlister, the section had gotten “out of hand” and thus posting freebies and asking for an email address in return is no longer allowed. You can read the sticky here: http://www.warriorforum.com/make-money-online/273708-warning-please-read-remove-your-squeeze-pages-your-thread-will-removed.html
This is not even where my problem is… (even though yea, I’m annoyed I won’t be getting those good, free opt-ins anymore)
The only reason I noticed this change is when I visited the forum and my “thank yous” went from about 120 to 94. The only way that can happen is if threads are deleted. When I figured out that they were all from the MMO section and that Sean had removed all my threads there, I offered a dissenting voice to the decision on the sticky, in a respectful manner. I explained that posting there is now no longer a profitable activity for other marketers and I and as such, the forum can only expect for the quality of the postings to go down. There was more to it as well and I’m pretty sure I made a strong point (since I got thanked for it by other members)…
But unfortunately, all the comments (6 or so, mostly saying how they liked the rule, a standard response to a rule-change sticky) were deleted and the thread was closed.
Why Sean? Can’t my respectful, constructive criticism be tactfully responded to? Why must it be expunged from the record?
I feel like we’re in a George Orwell novel. And this isn’t the first time, by any means. I’ve seen dissenting voices on many threads started by moderators get banned, deleted, silenced, etc.
So listen, I don’t want to harp on this. In many ways, all this stuff is no big deal and we all need to learn to roll with the punches. Am I a little peeved that Sean dismissed my comment and rendered my time completely invaluable by simply deleting it from the record? Yea. But also, after all these events, I may just need to take it as a sign to concentrate my efforts elsewhere. The Warrior Forum is not the first and will not be the last company to get high on their success and we need to understand that. After all, we saw what Google did last year and what Yahoo did years before them. And they are by no means, the first or last website to change their policies to the chagrin of a large number of members in what they think is in the best interest of their own business. All we can do as members is learn from it and act accordingly.
I am taking SOME action, but nothing drastic. It was time for me to end some of my WSOs anyway, so that’s what I’m doing. The 2 of note are closing on Sunday, October 24th:
Email Marketing Revolution WSO: http://www.warriorforum.com/warrior-special-offers-forum/238956-give-me-your-teeny-tiny-list-ill-show-you-how-turn-into-6-figures-real.html
Dual Action Affiliate Profits: http://www.warriorforum.com/warrior-special-offers-forum/256131-learn-how-i-banked-6500-snagged-600-buyer-leads-72-hours-see-insane-price-rave-reviews.html
But more importantly, it will be a change of focus. It’s clearer now more than ever of the Warrior Forum’s most useful purposes:
1) Getting started in IM. It’s a fantastic place to release your first couple of products, get some notoriety, some testimonials, develop some relationships, and yes, make some money. Since I’m slightly beyond this phase in my career, it may be time for me to focus elsewhere.
2) Discuss product releases. This has been beneficial to me on dozens of occasions.
3) Get answers to questions that can benefit from multiple opinions.
4) Find partners.
5) Grab an occasional WSO
For the most part, this is what I use it for. Yes, there are other uses and ways to leverage it for greater success.
However, it is now, more than ever, extremely important to NOT become dependent on the Warrior Forum or any other site. That is the exact reason why I preach list building so much. In the event of server meltdowns, drastic rule changes, or any other website-specific catastrophes, your list is the one that stays standing. I like to say, your list is so secure that not even the IRS can take it from you because all it is, in essence, is permission from thousands of people to send them emails. It isn’t the property of your auto-responder and isn’t subject to the TOS of Google or WF. It gives you the true independence you need.
So this is the conclusion I have come to. These events are not getting me huffy and puffy. I am not turning my back on the WF. I am still a member and will refer to it when I need it. Will I post another WSO? I do not know. Time will tell. But for now, I’m going to just sit and meditate on the fact that if I want freedom in my life, I’ve got to take the path to it. And it won’t come from traffic generated from somebody else’s website. If your business is currently relying on one source, I encourage you to look deeply into the issue and make sure you aren’t exposing yourself too drastically.
Until we stop reading email (anybody see that coming?), email traffic is KING. In my business, all other traffic methods are for the purposes of building email traffic. Period.
Email Marketing Revolution is now $27 as a WSO. On Monday, it will be available for $67. Is this a product you think you should have? Go here now before it’s closed: http://www.warriorforum.com/warrior-special-offers-forum/238956-give-me-your-teeny-tiny-list-ill-show-you-how-turn-into-6-figures-real.html
well stated David.
David, I could not agree more! I restricted my WF activity a couple of months ago for exactly the same reasons. Respectful comments but comments which did not agree with the view of certain moderators were deleted – now thats not a free society and falsifying history by deleting documents and comments belongs to the history books.
The comment about not relying on one source of income is also well made…..Google is the obvious candidate but if you are running a business it is not good risk management to rely on one source.
Plus ca change, plus c’est la meme chose.
This kind of thing happens all the time, David and not just in business circles. As you say: roll with the punches.
As an aside, and perhaps tangentially, I not only think too many people rely on too few channels on the Internet, but they rely too much on the Internet, per-se.
My biggest client had a £20-million business he’d built from scratch with Adwords, yet a couple of years ago realised how vulnerable he was to Google’s whims and tantrums. That’s when I started working with him to create offline channels, too.
The result is his business has doubled and he’s less exposed to Google’s capriciousness (and we’ve seen some of THAT recently, have we not?).
That said, I agree with you about the list. I just wish more people would see the list extending beyond email, though. It’s no great shakes to get a mailing address from people, and that ups the ante considerably.
– Jon
He who owns the Gold makes the rules. If you or O plan to get traffic, business, information out to our customers using anything but your own smoke signals, then you will always be at the mercy of the OWNER of the medium.
Sometimes it sucks to be us(those with less Gold).
That’s just my opionion I could be wrong, depending on of course how much gold YOU have.
I love what marketers (and teachers) like Terry Kyle and yourself are doing. You’re the new vanguard of IM training and idea sharing.
I’ll be buying your Email Revolution WSO this weekend.
-Jay
Hey David,
I know how you feel. I am not going to go into
all of the issues I’ve had with that forum, but
I will tell you I have been a member from the beginning when you had to pay to be a member, it was $49 then.
The membership date on my name on the forum is wrong
because there was a membership problem at one time
and when I was signed up again it gave me that date.
Anyhow, the problems on the Warrior forum are not unique. I was a member of a paid forum not to long ago and gave some very helpful, but very direct advice to a guy that had been whining and asking for help for about two weeks.
The moderator took down my post and sent me a PM and told me I was to direct and I should re-write my post!
I told he I wasted my time once and that was enough. I immediately had thoughts of the Warrior forum mods and canceled my monthly paid membership.
I think the reason forums are filled with crap is because most of us that know something or have any common sense don’t participate that often because of the stupidity of the mods.
Plus when I do ask a question in a forum I get a newbie giving me some “dumb no kidding” answer so he can get more posts under his belt.
Take care,
Blase
Too many people depend on the Warrior forum. It makes sense to use it for a number of things, but I have had moments in the past where it almost become a must do thing to visit it everyday.
They do appear to be putting the squeeze on the small guy. Someone said it will help get rid of the rubbish by putting the price up. The reality is more expensive rubbish.
David,
I am make a significant income outside of the IM niche and visit the Warrior Forum just to see if they have cheaper versions of software I can use.
For instance…I found 2 Kajabi alternatives (that I like better because they are WP based). I also occasionally swing in to the WSO section to see what people are up to.
That being said, a great alternative is the BaclinksForum.com …I am sure you have already heard of it.
Anyway…$27 is a no-brainer. I already have Andre Chaperon’s list course which is awesome, but I will take a look at yours as well, since you offer a unique perspective.
Good stuff,
-Rusty
Hey Buddy,
You keep on teasing me… because each time I release a WSO – I tell you it will be my last one!
So you know very well that for a long time I have decided to migrate away from the Warrior Forum for marketing.
My reasons are slightly different from yours. I must say, though, that your experience resonates with me…
If you remember we met on the Warrior Forum because we were only 2 of 3 people defending Mike Lantz when he was being pilloried by a gang of Warriors. I then PMed you and things took off from there.
It wasn’t the first time Mike had been attacked.
The VERY FUNNY thing is that as far as I can tell neither Allen Says nor the Moderators had a problem with Mike’s activities… however a group of people felt the urge to ‘put Mike in his place’.
I don’t actually engage in many discussions on WF and that was one of the few times I did.
Last year, I actually stopped selling some of my products on WF. I simply closed down the WSOs. At the time, some of my friends thought I was crazeee!
I admit it was a risk, but it was a calculated risk. I could plainly see that I needed to expand beyond the WF market.
I am very glad I made that decision.
I still release new products on WF, but these days I get less than 2% of my sales from DIRECT WF traffic, and that is why I keep telling you that each WSO is will be my last.
The thing is that WF makes it soooo easy to create a sales page, and I didn’t mind paying $20 for that. Now that the price has doubled to $40 – I really can’t justify spending that money, and that is why for the first time ever, I recently launched a product without putting it on WF (actually I did it without realising that prices had doubled – but the news hardened my decision.
Anyway, bro – you took the first step, months ago, by setting up on Nanacast, and you already have a growing list – so your transition should be painless.
I’ll reiterate what you said: the Warrior Forum is awesome for kick-starting a fledgling IM career. I will be the first to say that WF did wonders for me.
For any newbie who has something of value to offer, I’d say WF is arguably teh best place to start.
Keep smiling,
Oz.
David … thanks for the thoughts about the Warrior Forum. There seems to have been a number of unhappy people lately. Too bad. When they figure it all out, it may be after an exodus of people who have been important in their rise to success. It’s kind of late then.
Doesn’t matter where you post your “WSO’s” – by your blog, email or however. Most of us will probably be happy to go there and make our purchases. Just keep on with your advice, offers and other relevant information. We’re still here.
Thanks … Stan
Hi David,
Thanks for your thoughts, You have made me think a little about putting a WSO up. I have not done one yet so I suppose as you mentioned it is a good place to kick start things.
That’s what I want some feedback on the product before launching it to the public, well outside of the WF. I did notice that they had raised the price.
I will also have to check all the TOS before launching it.
I would agree you do not want to keep all your eggs in one basket.
Cheers
Craig
David some good points, but when placing your WSO above you may have mentioned that one is free within the other, because for us foreigners my bank charges will be over $6 for that WSO that I had already received as a bonus in the email WSO
Single source dependency has been the downfall of so many people and companies. think of smaller manufacturers who get a major account like Target or Wal Mart only to find out the terms of how they will operate and run their company. Suddenly, they have lost control of their operation.
I remember Terry Kyle referencing the Warrior who had his account deleted by EZA in the interview you did with him and Tom.
I found out about you through an email and am a client as a result so email obviously worked here!
Hi David,
The main reason of such activites by moderators is that they don’t get paid for their role amd work free (only for branding). So, they don’t carry any responsibility for their actions. I experienced the same problem with my “Strongest Backlinks Packages” and “SEO For Bloggers 2.0″. Now, I am not that interested to participate in the WF to spend my ideas and times.
Do you know what the most stupid is: There are hundreds of WSOs that claim “you will make $XXX … ” etc. which is obviously against the law and they are still there. Also there are no connections among moderators. Once I contacted John Taylor about my “Strongest Backlinks Packages” to let him review that it is not against TOS of others ites. He reviewed and agreed that they are legal (I can prove it by showing PMs) and not against TOS of other sites. Then the other day, I got another email from Paul that WSO rules changed and non all of backlinks courses or packages are approved, excpet article submissions or press release submissions. I again proved him that mine is legal (gave him a copy too) and it is reviewd by John Taylor. But nothing helped.
So, even moderators agreed that it is legal, they did not allow it because it was not about article or press releases.
Very sad really…
Best,
Orkhan Azer
David, maybe it’s time for some of you guys to take action and start an alternative forum to WF.
Seems like a couple days ago I opted in for something over there.
Anyway, I understand your apprehensions.
Hey David,
Great post! Like you, I have been a member of WF on and off for years, I actually first joined when it was just a private forum on an Internet Marketer’s website (I can’t remember offhand who it was who actually started it off). Over the years it has gone through a number of incarnations, and moderators, and the moderators make or break the system.
At the moment, as you say, the moderators are turning it back into a “Buy our stuff or don’t advertise here” type of ‘forum’ again, which will drive the average IM’er away and just leave the hard-core SPAMMERS until they wake up to themselves and lighten up a bit.
I do have one issue with your comments though, you say,
“I like to say, your list is so secure that not even the IRS can take it from you because all it is, in essence, is permission from thousands of people to send them emails. It isn’t the property of your auto-responder and isn’t subject to the TOS of Google or WF. It gives you the true independence you need.”
While I agree in general with what you are saying, if you have ever had the need to shift your list from one service to another you will find that the services do ‘own’ your list, because they make it next to impossible to export your list and import it into a new service. So it is vitally important to pick a service that will grow with you and your list right from the start. Other than that, yes, it is the single most important part of any Internet Marketing business, and something that I wish I had thought of doing way back in the day!
Terry
Good advice David.
Ya, some of the moderators over at the warrior forum are a little to over zealous at times and jerks. I rarely go over there much anymore.
I keep my forum reading down to a minimum and yes even yours (sorry). For me its about prioritizing and staying productive, so reading too much over at WF is a time hog.
I prefer nowadays to hang out at backlinksforum with Terry and Tom. They don’t mind you advertising back linking systems etc.
As far as your advice, absolutely you hit it right on to diversify. In fact, you need to make that in big ass orange blinking lites around that advice. Diversify folks and never ever leave all of your eggs (or money making ways) with 1 method.
Have a great weekend.
Cheers
Yup… learned that lesson at Blake’s board in 1999. You’ll do fine with less dependency – but you already know that.
Lets not forget that history is written by the winners of war, the conquered are either deleted or they moved before the war broke out.
When will the world learn that tyranny never works, that thousands or millions of heads left to do their own thing produce better results than do a few heads or one head?
As the intelligent and successful find the warrior forum less and less helpful and leave, so will the newbies find the warrior forum less and less helpful because the experts are gone or rare. Then they too will leave and the warrior forum will fail.
So the unsuccessful experiments like the warrior forum will perish and be replaced by more free, innovative, in-tune forums. Anyone ready to start such an IM forum?
David, I am glad for the WF since i have made the key contacts and met real IMers like you and others. Dependency is the keyword. Very good article and insight, as always.
Levi
Hi David
The reasons you’ve mentioned is exactly why I haven’nt been in the forum for 3 months now. You respectfully post something that is within the rules and I you just take a stand and voice an opinion (respectfully again) then your threads gets deleted. I don’t even have a link in my sig and I got more thanks than posts. But I’m now fed-up with the moderators. I now it can be a powerful marketing tool but because I’m not really in the IM niche I rather focus on building my business than hang around in the forum.
There is some awesome people in the forum, but it is not what it used to be.
Keep well
Maggie
Thanks David, I was just about to pay my dues to help expand my business and post my first product. reading your post along with my own experiences has made me change my mind once again.
I have found that if you want to build your business online or off, you are pretty much going to do it yourself with little or no help even though there are millions out there that say they will help.
I did find a great forum that does not have all of the bs and it is so cheap to upgrade that one burger will pay for it!
http://netmarketingforum.com/members/47008-leprechaun
Sorry for the affiliate url, it is the only one I have as I just joined. Check it out and let me know what you think.
Keep up the great work David, looking forward to your next product. Leprechaun
Yes WF is a joke anymore. The mods are horrible and think they are god. They protect frauds.
The one main reason I would never post another wso ever is that you can bet 100% your wso product will be shared for free on the black hat forums within hours.
My .02 cents
It’s a real shame – and I’m sure that there are hundreds of people who owe their ‘new’ lifestyle to the Warrior Forum. Will be sad to see less exerperienced and knowledgable marketers spend their time there because they see less value in helping.
I noticed another very well respected copywriter got banned from the Warrior Forum last night, I too was banned a few months ago.
It’s a shame when you take pride in helping other people online, only to have your help thrown back in your face afterwards.
Mark my words, before too long is out, the WF will just become another Digital Point… full of mindless dribble.
If only the moderators would start acting a little more responsibly on the Warrior Forum… treating people like adults… instead of ruling everyone with an iron fist. The lack of control on the part of a few mods is just very, very silly bordering on the absurd.
They treat everyone as though they’re in kindergarten rather than being in business as I have, for decades.
I was actually banned for proffering a dissenting opinion publically when another moderator decided it was best to ban the legendary Jim Straw (JF Straw) for 7 days. An outstanding fellow in his mid seventies, an absolute gentleman, lost his wife recently and in his marketing career has sold over $400million worth of product.
You’d think the Warrior Forum would want to hang onto gentlemen such as himself but no, they disrespected this dear old boy and booted him unceremoniously off the forum.
For speaking out in disagreement with the decision, all 2,000 of my posts were deleted which had received a 33% Thanks rate ratio from other members and then I was booted off for good (banned.)
Lesson learned, you must diversify both online and offline… if you want to succeed.
Wishing everyone here and you especially David, a very Merry Christmas and a wonderful and successful New Year!
Kindest regards,
Mark Andrews
This is a very disturbing post for sure.
I’ve had a couple of run ins with mods over the past couple of years. Nothing serious,.. just very opinionated and one sided remarks or “warnings” when only one side of the story was heard. Real “hanging judge” mentality.
I’ve had some decent WSO success although nothing startling,.. just regular streams of income that have helped each month.
That said, over the past 6 months the majority of my online sales have come from the WF and to be honest if I was suddenly booted off right now for whatever reason then it would really hurt.
It’s definitely a forum where free speech and free expression are non existent. Everything that any member ever posts there always has to be filtered through a kind of “kiss-ass” filter otherwise you risk being exposed, targeted and booted off.
I really appreciate this post as it’s made me stop and think and realize that I need to start seriously diversifying.
There’s one thing for sure though… soon enough someone or something will come along that just knocks WF into a virtual overnight oblivion and when that happens we’ll see some serious lamenting going on amongst the WF ashes.
For now its still useful but I’ll be actively planning out my “Plan B” strategy in order to protect my online income.
(PS… I gave an anon name to protect my WF ID,.. hope you can understand why and make an allowance!)